Being an Interim Leader During Times of Change

Diane Scarborough, Interim CHRO

Parental leave, leadership voids and sudden departures of leaders are just a few reasons an organization will bring in an Interim Leader. This is one of the most challenging roles I can imagine. I interviewed Diane Scarborough who has been an interim CHRO role numerous times. We talked about how she thinks about change, how she quickly gains context, and her secret to creating trust and psychological safety. This conversation is a masterclass in how to have influence without positional authority.  

Good morning. It's so nice to see you. We have been friends for. I don't even remember how long... I mean, it's been a long time.

It's been a long time because it was when we were in Chicago and long before we were old enough to have major things happen in our lives. 

We were really young. It's funny. We both used to live in Chicago and we don't anymore and we've been friends and professional colleagues for a long time and because of that, I know a bit about your work. So, for everybody who doesn't know you, can you please introduce yourself?

Sure. First, thank you so much for having me. It's always great to see you. I'm Diane Scarborough. I'm an HR leader and Consultant. I've spent most of my career in the professional services and tech spaces. However, I've been consulting for several  years, and I've been able to work across industries  in public, private and private equity companies. I live in Atlanta now. I have for a little over a year, but prior to that, I spent most of my adult life in Chicago.

How did you get into HR?

I was a political science major at Miami University in Ohio and I decided I didn't want to go to law school, which was kind of the normal path. I decided my family had enough lawyers. So, I moved to Chicago after graduation with a bunch of my friends. We all settled in Lincoln Park, a wonderful neighborhood in Chicago.  I've always been a joiner and so I just started reaching out to folks and through the Miami Alumni Association, through different groups that I may be affiliated with, and  started having a lot of coffees and lunches with strangers  who were kind enough to give me time, which was amazing. I asked them what do you do and what do you like about it? What skills do you need?

And, by doing a lot of that, HR seemed to come into frame as something I may be good at, not just because I'm a people person, though I find people fascinating, but because of some of the other skills that are needed. I was fortunate enough to land my first job in HR and that set off my career.

What was your first leadership role?

I look back and laugh. I went into Aon Risk Services knowing nothing about HR  and I worked for a leadership team that said, "Diane, you're smart. Ask forgiveness, not permission." Which was  a pretty bold thing to say to a young 20-something. We just tried everything and I was promoted very quickly and became  a vice president before I was 30, leading HR for a sizable geography. And, it's amazing how when you take a young person and tell them that, what that does for their confidence and their ability to make an impact.

How did hearing that advice change you?

I've tried to emulate this throughout my career. 

When you take away the fear, the amount of creativity that can come out of people is pretty amazing.

So it made you feel relaxed, that you could take chances or risk or do something that maybe wasn't the tried and true path?

Yes. We did a lot of what wasn’t common at the time. I look back at that time and what we were doing was considered  innovative. Identifying high potentials and doing succession planning and looking at how do we make this a better workplace and adding flexibility and things that just a lot of folks weren't doing but we knew that's what our people wanted because we asked. I'm a big proponent of if you don't want to act on the answers, don't ask the questions. So, we were just able to really do a lot and make an impact within the whole Aon organization. They started doing what we were doing. So, it was pretty amazing.

You said something really cool there. If you don't want to act on the answers, don't ask the questions. Can you say a little bit more about that? 

I'm baffled by companies that do employee surveys and just never follow up. It is so simple to just read out the feedback, pick some priorities, do some focus groups, and  decide on appropriate changes. I think there are probably some companies who feel that, oh, we asked their opinion so that counts. Well, that's just the start and actually doing an employee survey, and not doing anything with it after really can damage an organization or a leader's credibility, which is why I say if you're not willing to act on the information, don't ask the question.

It's great wisdom because I think we think, well, we have to do an employee engagement. We all learned from Gallup, right? Who I used to work for. Employee engagement and we have to do that. And, now it's become a standard best practice and so it's easy to say, "Okay. Well, we checked that box."

Yes, exactly.

We forget that it’s just the first box. There's a whole bunch of boxes after “the run the survey box. We can damage trust and psychological safety in a culture and change our culture. Don't trust the leaders because they're going to ask for your opinion but they don't actually care because they're aren't going to do something with it.

Exactly. You're better off not doing it.

It's great advice. So the reason I wanted to talk to you today is because you've been an interim CHRO, I mean, multiple times. I can't even count at this point Seven, eight times? For folks who don't know, how did you get into being an interim CHRO?

I landed in consulting after a family situation arose and  flexibility became a dominant need for me.  Thankfully people started calling me, saying, "Hey, this CEO needs some help. Can you help?." It kind of took off from there. I'm on number four of my interim CHRO roles just here in Atlanta. I haven't stopped since I arrived.

All the roles I've had have  been through referral. I don’t have a website. We have discussed this. (laughs) I don't have a website. But, it somehow has worked out and I've gotten to work with a lot of really cool people and it's been great. But, that's how it all started.

One of the things I've always loved about you is how interested you are in other people. You have this incredible network. I think one of the things you're really good at is building relationships with a variety of people and that's really probably served you well with getting these interim CHRO roles.

I do find people fascinating. I'm very much a relationship person. It comes to me very naturally.

You seem not to be afraid of anybody or to meet new people. This seems great to get these roles but also once you’re in them. 

Right. Right. It's really important.

What was that first CHRO role like? What was it like and how was it different than you expected?

I was brought into a private equity backed retail organization that had just had a change with their CHRO. The CEO said, "We just need someone to keep the ship afloat. This isn't going to be anything big." I got there and we quickly found a number of things that were very troubling and actions needed to be taken. I also ended up connecting with a few people on the HR team who were amazing, who were very aware of the problems and who said, "We're so glad you're here. We want to help you." Those are people with whom I have remained close. A lot of things came up that weren't expected. It was the first time I've ever told a CEO based on something I found that if we don't act on this, you can go to jail.

Wow.

Which was actually not an understatement. He understood it and in those situations , especially when it's private equity, it's scary for that guy because he had to go to the private equity people and say, "Houston, we have a problem." I helped him maneuver through it. We fixed the problem very quickly so it would not become an issue later for them. It was more intense than I expected. But also when you're working with people in really intense situations, you get really close. At least for me, I build very close bonds and those relationships stay even after I've departed.

How was it intense and more intense? In what way?

It  was intense because the problem that shot up as soon as I arrived was the kind of thing that could take a company out if it wasn’t handled. 

Has the intensity happened at other places or does it really depend on the client context?

It depends on the client context  and the reason I am hired. Some of the clients I've had, depending on why I'm brought in, there's a level of intensity but it's different. For some, it's  because they want to be better and not sure how to get there. For others, it's that something's happened and how do we just calm this down.  So, it varies. 

As you and I both know, folks don't always take HR or people stuff seriously. They might hire someone who just has a few years of experience or not at the right level. Companies don't always understand the real serious jeopardy they can put themselves in as a company and the problems that can cause on the culture. If there's a problem that is serious that we're looking at legal issues, I'm pretty sure you have a culture issue.

I think that's a fair statement.

I'm not surprised that you have this role and have done this over and over again because I think there's just a lot about the field that is not really understood still, even though it's been around for a long time.

Right. I think there are, are still some HR professionals out there who want to have everything be very black and white. Working with my clients I know that you have to be comfortable living in the gray, especially if it's a private equity firm or privately held , and especially if it's a sales organization. If you're not comfortable living in the gray,I don't know if you'd be very happy doing what I do.

When you say living in the gray, do you mean the complexity of running an organization and making choices and decisions?

Right. Decisions have to be made and having good judgment and common sense is crucial. Do the right thing. Treat people with dignity and respect. But, for some people,  their immediate question is "Well, what does the handbook say?" I'm not someone who ever refers to the handbook, so as soon as I hear  that question, especially from an HR person, I get a little prickle in my neck. 

I also think it speaks to operating in the macro economic environment, which is sort of interesting right now. And hard to navigate.

Yeah. For everybody.

What's been hardest overall about being an interim leader?

I think there's two things that for me personally make it challenging. 

I'll be working with a client for however many months and we'll put some things into place that everyone's really excited about, but as an (interim leader) I go away so I don't get to see the impact of what we did six or 12 months later. I'll usually hear about it because I stay in touch but I don't get to live it. I’m not there to do the tweaks in case one is needed so that’s hard.  Also as I mentioned, I'm very much a relationship person and when you're working really closely with people, and I've gotten to work with just some amazing leaders, some fabulous teams, and your time is done and it's time to say goodbye. It's hard. Saying goodbye to folks who you've spent every day with for a number of months and you truly care about as people and you know their story, they know your story, it's hard. But, I just keep in mind that, wow, how lucky am I that this person's now going to be my friend, not just my client. So, I'm able to view it that way. But, the saying goodbye can be a bit bittersweet.

It strikes me that when you're coming in that there's probably a lot of change going on. Maybe there’s a leadership role missing. Someone has departed or they don’t have someone at the right level of leadership? 

Perfectly correct.

So, you're coming into a lot of change. 

Right. And, not everyone understands the change is needed.

How hard is that? Or, is it not hard for you?

I think change is hard for everybody. My attitude on change that makes it easier for me is to always assume good intent.  I also believe that without change, you can't grow. So I try to help the people I'm working with view change from that perspective.   I have hired consultants in my career on the corporate side, and  I didn’t appreciate  consultants who came in with assumptions and said, "Well, this is what we're going to do," before they asked a single question. 

You have to listen and not have an agenda. I think understanding your client's business and the outside pressures and the competition they're facing is really important and that helps you gain credibility quickly versus not bothering to try, which is how I've been able  to work across so many different industries.

I think it goes back to listening and asking questions. For me, since I am really curious, it's pretty easy to ask a lot of questions. It’s important to understand the why behind the what. I think that's also a respect issue. Coming into any organization and saying you're doing it all wrong is really disrespectful.  Respect  for their history is so important.

When you started this role being interim, did you expect you’d be coming in during times of change or navigating times of change would be such a big part of the role?

I would like to say, "Oh yes. It was a master plan." There was no master plan. I knew to an extent  that change would be a piece of it because of the reasons I'm brought in. Since that first time  when they said  "Can you just maintain the status quo”, no one else has wanted me to maintain the status quo. I'm brought in for a reason.That reason usually involves a large change on the behalf of the organization.

My understanding of you is that you're pretty comfortable with change. Not everybody navigates change well. Where do you think being so comfortable with change comes from? Is that just something that you've always been like or is it something you've been able to get even better at when you were in these roles?

I think it's both. I think I'm a very naturally optimistic person and I look for the bright side in any situation. So, it goes back to assuming good intent. When I'm in a situation, if folks aren’t behaving in a way that’s helpful, I just assume they don’t know better - I don’t assume poor intent.  

I also think with maturity and experience you get to make a choice.  Either let some of the hard changes in life crush you or find a way to learn something and take it with you." I hate to think that anything was a waste of my time. So, even in a really unpleasant situation, I try to take something with me so next time I can use that to make a situation better.

I think part of what people struggle with change is they get very scared. They might think, “Oh my gosh, what does this mean? We might lose money. We might have to let people go.” That can really terrify people. My sense of you is that you don't get afraid by those things.

I agree. The world experienced 9/11. As an HR leader on that day who knew people at Ground Zero, I was in Chicago. My office faced  the Sears Tower. We thought there was a fourth plane. I chose, along with everybody else in Chicago, to evacuate my company. At the time, I was informed that I did not have the authority to do that, that that decision would be made in D.C. I said, "Well, you go ahead and fire me. I'm doing the right thing." 

I can look back on that day, as hideous as it was, and every day since when I go to work and there's big change happening I go back to that moment. None of us are going to have to make a call to someone's emergency contact saying, "By chance, have you heard from your loved one?." None of us are going to have to do that today. So when people are freaking out and thinking, oh my God, this is the worst thing, my attitude is we've seen the worst thing and we survived. So let's put things in perspective.

It’s a good attitude when it comes to change. So, you're coming in during change. People can be like, “Okay, who's this new person who's now making all of these decisions? Who are you?” This might make them leery or distrustful. How do you overcome skepticism?

And, the skepticism is completely appropriate.

Yep. 

I go in being very aware of it. I address it immediately. With my current client, he and I sat down with the team as soon as I arrived and he led with explaining who I was and that I was there to help.  He framed it in a very, very positive way, which was great. Then I met with the team as a group. I basically did a new leader assimilation on myself. I opened the floor to questions. Ask anything you want. I would much rather have you ask me a question directly now than hear about it a month from now from someone three people away who's, "Oh, so and so's still worried about this."

Then I spent time with everybody alone. I think being curious about people is helpful. I try to find out what they’re doing, what they would love to be doing more of,  can I help them with their career, what are they doing that just doesn't make sense or is a waste of time, and I'm in a position where I can help make some of that noise go away. Doing that has allowed me to build credibility. 

Most of the time people know a change was needed. But don’t be surprised by someone who just doesn't buy it.  I've come to learn that it's usually the person who didn't think anything was wrong before.  They just need a little help understanding why I'm there. (I make sure they know) that I'm here to help you be more successful, the team be more successful, the company be more successful. How do we make things simpler , more efficient, and more impactful – being able to address those goals is important. 

You talked about new leader assimilation. Can you tell people what new leader assimilation is? 

A new leader assimilation is often led by someone either in HR or another business leader. Sometimes I just do them on myself. It's pretty basic. It takes about an hour. You tell people in advance what we’re doing. You get a certain amount of time. Ask any question you want. Nothing's off the table. And, often the questions can be around what do you think of us. People want to know. What have you heard about us? And, I tell them. Good, bad or indifferent. I will tell them. What are you here for? Why should we trust you? What's your experience? 

Then it’s my turn to ask them questions. What do you like doing? How do you want to communicate? What do you need from me right now? How can I make your career more joyful? What were you seeing that's not working? What's working really well and you want more of it? It's just a time to have a very throw it all at the wall conversation. In return, the expectation is that all the chatter goes away.  You've already gotten to ask every question you wanted to know and now we move forward in a positive, productive manner.

It seems to me that when you do that, it builds trust because it shows you're listening. And you're sharing information.  

Exactly.

How do you build influence? It’s hard for lots of leaders. You do it while having an interim title.

Yep. My door says Interim HR leader. 

How do you approach influence in those situations?

Listening is key. Asking the why behind the what. Getting to know people. 

I think sometimes people are afraid to get to know people on a personal level. I find that just giving the open space to let people talk about their families, their hobbies, their interests, their careers... A lot of what I do is just opening a couple open ended questions and  letting people  talk and feel heard. I make sure it’s very clear that I don't come with an agenda. I'm here to help you be even more successful. In some cases, more quickly. You're growing really quickly. I'm here to help you be more scalable so you can surpass your most aggressive goals.

I think when people realize that that's true, which they see through action, we're  able to do a lot of things very quickly. The ability to build influence happens quickly. I often have 1:1s with everybody on an executive team, for example, and ask the same questions. I like to see what are the trends, what do they need, and what do they think about the reasons that I was brought in to help  the company. There are some Consultants  who  may treat people differently based on their title. That's a great way to kill your credibility because it’s possible many folks are  talking about you.

They can see through you, right? They can tell. 

Yes. I grew up in a home where dignity and respect for everybody was a basic expectation. It didn’t matter what their title was or if they're related to us or live next door, etc. People get a sense of sincerity and authenticity because I don’t have the energy to be somebody else. This is it. This is who you get. 

Yep.

I grew up in a small town in the Midwest on a lake. We didn't go to malls. We didn't have that stuff. We had the beach. That's who I am. I am very comfortable saying “I don't know” and “good question”. I ask people for clarification a lot. I'll say, "I don't understand what you're talking about. Can you explain it to me.”   Showing the confidence to say I don't know but let's figure it out does a lot of good versus being the person who doesn’t want to show they don’t know something. No one knows everything. I think that that really helps you build some influence when people realize you're not just blowing smoke, you want to understand.

So beautifully put. Influence is so much in the little details. It’s not about finding the person with the biggest title and sucking up to them. 

We know the hard part's leaving, but what's the most rewarding thing about being an interim leader? 

I love when I'm told, "You being here has made a difference. You helped make us better. We're going to do this and it's going to be able to help us with attraction, retention and be a great workplace. You've helped us figure out a structure so as we're growing so it's going to scale. You've helped a leader become more comfortable showing his human side and getting him out of his office and the impact that has on the people around him." 

As an interim leader it’s not the Diane show. I’m here to help. And helping great people and companies be even more successful is incredibly rewarding to me.

How do you get context quickly? I assume you get context from the person who's bringing you in, which is almost always a CEO, a general managing partner, somebody of that type. But, how do you quickly get context outside of what the CEO or the person who brought you in?

Finding those unofficial leaders who everybody talks to is key. I do a ton of walking around. I wish I kept my step counter with me because I walk around a lot.  I see who people are going to. I listen to people. I listen for names. When a lot of people are referring to a certain person, I get to know that person. It doesn't matter what level they are. For some reason, everyone's going to them. They all know what's going on and I quickly start spending time with them and I let them know I'm here to help. What advice do you have for me? 

I don't frame it as, "What do you know? Tell me." 

Give me the goods. (laughs)

Give me the goods. (laughs) No. It's, "You know what? I'm here to help. I think you probably have some great context and information. What are you comfortable sharing that can help me be even better at being helpful and help me be more effective? And, how can I help you as you're growing your career? What do you want and what can I do to help you?." And, that usually helps (give me context) pretty quickly.

That's great. There are always folks who are influential or leaders or who people listen to, whether they have conferred titles or not. They always exist. And, they’re invaluable to understanding the reality of situations because my guess is sometimes the person who brought you in might have a different perspective of what's going on in the culture than maybe some of these other leaders who may or may not have a title.

Yes, exactly.

They provide great context and information about how to proceed, what solutions to propose, what the potential trouble spots might be.

Exactly. And, you're also making sure that there's not an assumption out there that you only speak to the C suite. I think that's a big mistake people make. Get off of that floor.

What advice would you give to other interim execs? 

Don't go in with assumptions. Recognize there's a lot you don't know. Listen. Ask open ended questions and let people talk. Ask clarifying questions. Understand the why behind the what. A great way to blow up your own credibility is just to assume everything's wrong and really offend everyone who's been there for a long time. 

Lastly, remember why you're there. You're there to help. If you're going in with some kind of political agenda or thinking you can be the hero, don't do that. You're there to help. I guess another piece of advice would be, be curious. If you're not curious, you may not enjoy this kind of work.

If this piece resonated with you, please let me know and give the heart button below a tap.